the average in higher education is about 35%. so when you change those kinds of programs and you say, well, we don't want them to have these big loans, they don't have any money to begin with. so if i don't have any money, and you're telling me i have to have money to get money, that's what the policy is basically telling us. >> this feels like exactly the thing you were just talking about. the 30,000 feet thing. you're problem is such a good one. when you're making policy, sometimes what you need is proximity to and intimacy, and a an awareness of thousand it's going to affect those communities. >> and the question is, who in the obama administration is going to have that kind of knowledge. in theory, you would think they would. but the larger issue of what hbcu s are facing is an even bigger threat is diversity of -- >> tell me more about that. >> well, the hbcus are facing this serious crisis, and the loan program is part of it, but the larger problem is that we have, as a society pb in the wake of jim crow and in the wake of